John Feigenbaum Presents at Raleigh Club Show [Video]

The show coordinators at the Raleigh (NC) Coin Club were nice enough to invite CDN Publishing to speak at their annual Club show this past weekend. Despite the fact that we had never made such a presentation, we were intrigued by the idea of discussed the many developments here at CDN and the overall market with collectors and dealers in person.  [Transcript to follow]

// Transcript of audio: //

John Feigenbaum:  Thank you, Bob, for introducing me. My name is John Feigenbaum. I’m a publisher at CDN Publishing. We publish the Greysheet family of publications—so the Greysheet Weekly, then we have the monthly supplement, the quarterly I, II and III, the Bluesheet, the Greensheet (which covers currency). And then, we also have recently introduced something called the Goldsheet which covers modern Chinese market.

So, I came here to this show, I was invited to come to speak. It’s our first time that we’ve actually attended a show to make a presentation and, really, just to discuss how we arrive at pricing. Maybe I thought we could learn from each other what concerns collectors or dealers have about how we arrive at the pricing and how we can better articulate that to the audience.

The key for myself and Patrick at CDN Publishing is to help the market — the coin market. We want to get the pricing absolutely correct so that when you buy and sell coins, when you collect, you’re protected the best you can be protected, so that you’ll be more comfortable investing in coins, trading coins, buying and selling.

What I see other collectibles that have an inefficient pricing scheme — whether we’re talking about collectible stamps or art, fine art, any antiques. When I see a lack of [accurate] pricing, I see a marketplace that’s very inefficient, and people are nervous about putting their money into it.

Now, what we’re trying to do with the rare coin market is eliminate that uncertainty. And it’s extremely difficult because the rare coin market couldn’t be more complicated, to be honest with you. For a market that looks clean and efficient thanks to certification and grading, it has an incredible amount of nuances. And we spend our entire time trying to work those things out and present a single price or two for a coin—which is really almost impossible, however that’s our goal.

So, that’s what we’re here to do. I can give you a quick history of CDN Publishing. CDN Publishing was founded in 1963. It was called the National Coin Brokerage Bulletin. And it was originally invented by a small group of dealers in California who wanted to gather information that was coming across something called the teletype back in those days. They were creating a little newsletter to disseminate this information to their audience and things like that.

It originally covered Morgans, Walkers and rolls. And rolls, back in the ’60s, was the hot market at the time. It’s hard to believe today, but that was an incredibly hot market.

And so, eventually, in 1976, the CDN Group, from the weekly Greysheet, we added the monthly supplement which includes a lot of details on series that don’t need to be covered weekly like the Barber series, three-cent nickels, two-cent pieces and things like that.

The Bluesheet was founded in 1989 to represent the sight-unseen market. With the emergence of third-party grading in 1986, we had a marketplace that certified coins. And the idea behind that is only grading companies that NGC and PCGS [unintelligible 03:18] would be a sight-unseen marketplace to trade, and this will bring in a lot of investors. And so the Bluesheet was created on that line.

Today, the Bluesheet represents almost really a different kind of a number. It represents more of the spread. So, where we use the Bluesheet more today is to represent the low end of the certified market, whereas the Greysheet supplement represents the high end of that certified market.

So, we encourage everybody to really use both, especially if you own any of the series that we price in the Bluesheet—for example, we price Morgan dollars, [Beast Dollars], Walking Liberty Half Dollars. These are coins that could have fairly large spreads between a low end coin for the grade in the same holder versus the high end coin for the grade.

So, you’re playing with fire if you’re trying to buy Morgan dollars and you’re not using both of these sheets.

What else can we say? The Greensheet is our other publication. The Greensheet covers the currency market. It’s the only publication really today that covers the general currency market.

Patrick and I took over pricing about two years ago for all of these sheets. And we have almost completely re-priced every single item from currency to coins in all of our sheets because the sheets had long been integrated and not following the modern market trends. So we came along and really had redressed a lot of the pricing issues.

We [unintelligible 04:47] and criticisms either way about how we approach that. There’s no question that, today, the sheets represent the current market a lot more closely than they’ve ever have.

So, really quickly, some background on myself, I’m a former rare coin dealer. I grew up in a rare coin business. My father was a collector. And as a little kid, I grew up in Miami, Florida. And we tagged along to the [Hialeah] Coin Club with them in 1972 or 1973. During these club shows, we’ve been in Miami and Hollywood, Florida every weekend of my life—I mean, in high school—all of which was lost on me. All I really wanted to do was play video games. But I sat behind him at these tables […] most weekends of my life in adolescence.

And then, I went to college, and came back from college four years later. And my father had been professor at Old Dominion University which led us to Virginia Beach. [At his end of] tenure at Old Dominion, he became a full-time coin dealer. So he follows the track of a lot of collectors and a lot of dealers in that regard.

I joined him about a year or two after graduating school. I was sort of the marketing guy in the rare coin business. We quickly built a website back in 1995 which happened right after I graduated. And so I took on this whole website side while he was really […] operation.

And then, unfortunately, he was diagnosed with ALS in 1996. So I had to take over the business completely in 1996.

So, I was an accidental coin dealer at that point because I really have never thought of myself as being a coin dealer when I took over.

I spent the next 15 years building David Lawrence Rare Coins into about a $30 million a year business. I completely burned out on the idea of buying and selling coins all day long because I never really, really loved it, to be honest with you. That wasn’t one of my things.

I really enjoyed publishing. I would publish a lot of books back in those days with DLRC Press. We published the complete guide to 12 or 15 different coin series including the Barber series.

So, I retired about two years ago from David Lawrence. I handed off to John Brush. He’s now the president of that company. And in my retirement, quicker than I expected, I was called because [unintelligible 07:13] who was the publisher at CDN [unintelligible 07:16].

They called me and said, “If you’re retired from the coin business, and you can be objective in pricing,” I’m not anything on both sides of the fence, “then you’ll be perfect for this.”

And my mother was in the newspaper business for 35 years. It was the perfect thing for me to take over. And I actually just really love what I’m doing now.

So, I love pricing coins. We were always frustrated at David Lawrence. And everybody, if you ask […], we’ve been in this business for decades. We were always frustrated with [unintelligible 07:49]. They really never listened to us. We’d call, they wouldn’t respond. They wouldn’t even take your call. We’re the opposite to them.

Today, we want you to call. We want you to email more than call. But we want to interact with the coin dealers and collectors. And we want to hear because it’s a very dynamic world everywhere, and the coin business is no different.

And like I said, the better we can do with pricing, the better we think this market will be.

And generally, we’re getting compliments for how we’re doing […] the changes we’re making. And we’re making changes every single month.

Just in the last week, we added a new monthly supplement. We added 1858 pricing for three-cent nickels, Shield nickels and D-nickels, 1858 MS66 and MS67. We’ve added these coins with grade layers across the board in almost every series we represent. And we will continue to do so. We’re going to try and get through the entire catalog because we’ve historically not priced modern series, for example, things like that. We’ve added Silver Eagle pricing in the Bluesheet recently (not a lot of people know that).

So, we’ve been working hard. And we have a lot of great ideas coming in terms of things we’re going to do.

One of the next big things we’re going to do now and roll out in the next few weeks actually is Greysheet pricing on our website. So, for years, of course, it’s mind-boggling to think that you wouldn’t be able to just log in to the Greysheet.com website and see the pricing that you have on your newsletter. It’s taken us almost two years since we took over to sift through the data, make it presentable and put it on the web for subscribers to see. So, that’s coming.

And just behind that will be an app for your smart phone where you’ll be able to see the same kind of data. So when you’re walking around, you’re at a coin show, instead of peering at these sheets, which is time-consuming (and unfortunately, not everything is organized efficiently), now you’ll be able to type in 1881-S $1, and you’ll see all the pricing. You’ll see auction results for the last five years. You could see a price graph of how those prices have performed over the last 25 years.

So, we’re adding all of these to the website and to this phone app coming soon.

I’m sorry, I just need one more minute, and I’ll take questions.

The other big announcement that I wanted to make to the collector community is we’ve recently rolled out something called the Collectors Price Guide. The Collectors Price Guide, we refer to it as the CPG (for better or for worse). We call it the CPG. And the Collectors Price Guide is really kind of a retail number that represents profit margin for dealers over the Greysheet wholesale values.

So, for years, the Greysheet would publish an [ask] value. An ask value was never anything 10% more than bid value.

So, when we took over, we had two problems with that. One is that it’s an arbitrary number to just decide that every dealer should make 10%. Why should anybody say what they’re asking for? And it didn’t really make sense to take up the publishing space. That’s why we’re able to add more pricing columns, because we eliminated the ask column.

And CPG is now published separately, but actually not published by us in print at all. Really, the CPG value on our website, we’re making it available to coin dealers and auction companies for free. Whatever coin they’re listing on their website can be published with the CPG value of that item.

And then, most recently, we’ve had a nice arrangement with the ANA where we are publishing the CPG grids online for free. For any member of the ANA, you’ll see—it depends on the issue of how it cycles through pricing. And that just launched in June. So, the first issue […] came out last week I think [unintelligible 12:02].

So, the July issue is going to have all the silver coins. And then we’ll have the gold coins following that [unintelligible 12:12].

And just a quick word as to why we would do that—I mean, it’s a non-revenue source for either organization. We didn’t charge ANA. They’re not paying us. What we want to do is support this organization. So, just like a lot of coin clubs, it’s a great organization and it’s important.

The most important thing here is picking up the collector base. And the ANA is struggling like a lot of collector organizations. And we’re the first [unintelligible 12:44] that pricing would be more useful to collectors. So why not let them have it?

Mostly, it’s with name brand recognition that we wanted out of it. If you’re not a member of the ANA, I’d like to just […] say please do join. [unintelligible 13:01] everyone to join this organization. These organizations need your help.

So, that’s my introduction. This is my first presentation along this line. So please, if you have any questions, I’ll happily answer them and hear what you have to say.

[participant]: Well, the first thing you talked about, [inaudible 13:21]?

John Feigenbaum: So, Brian asked how the pricing online will be different from what’s published in print?

[participant]: No, because some of us do get the sheets online.

John Feigenbaum: So, online, what you’re getting today is a PDF, a downloadable PDF document that you can download and print. And that’s great. The problem is if you’re on a small phone, you can’t see that very well. You’re pinching and zooming. It’s problematic.

What we’re working on online, it’ll show well on your phone—I mean, on the size of your screen. We’ll allow you to drill into specific areas. So if you get into 1921 Walking Liberty Half Dollar, you’ll be able to drill into that coin. You’ll be able to see auction prices. Realize, of course, we can’t publish that online. So you’ll be able to see the last five years of auction data that’s given to us. And you’ll be able to see a performance chart.

It’s not the kind of thing you need when you’re walking around a coin show probably, but this information is extremely valuable.

The auction data is, of course. If you’re spending thousands of dollars on coins, you really want to know what’s going on. And I’ll talk I guess more about how we get to pricing, but we can only represent coins with a single value. That’s really just kind of like—I don’t know what a good metaphor is.

But it’s almost impossible to pin down on any coin, especially coins that trade frequently ([unintelligible 14:52] $20 whole pieces, for example, 5-figure coin turn all the time). How do I give it one number when the last 20 auction records are all in the $5000 range? I’m just going to say $20,000 because that’s where I think it hits.

But if you’re a buyer, you have to decide whether you like this coin. Do you feel it’s worth the $21,500 that the buyer is asking for it? Or would you want to try and get it for $19,000 and you won’t pay $20,000.

Whatever your number is, every bit of information can only help you in this regard.

So, the online app will also, more things like that.

The PDF is really a rudimentary old-school way that the legacy company had created to deliver this document. It’s problematic for us at CDN because people steal it, plain and simple. Guys in clubs, club guys […], they’re giving it to everybody in their coin club. And we can’t stay in business if people are stealing our pricing.

People know that we charge a lot for our publication. We charge about $240 a year to get all the Greysheet. But if you consider the fact that there’s 52 Greysheets a year, there’s another 12 monthly supplements and another 12 quarterlies, we’re not making a lot of money on this product.

And we’re putting full-time employees, customer service, everything you could imagine. This is not a high margin business. It only works, like the ANA, if we have enough people supporting it.

There’s an awful lot of people who think that when they download that PDF, it’s free. It’s like, “Oh, it’s no problem to give it away.” But it’s no different than stealing this laptop computer. It’s property. And if you give away my property and you give it to a bunch of other people who aren’t investing in that, you’re hurting yourself too.

We can talk about the kinds of complaints I receive on a regular basis. And a lot of the complaints are that we shouldn’t sell our publications to collectors. I would fight all day long for collectors to tell dealers that they need to learn how to talk to their customers about how it’s important that they make it a really reasonable mark-up at their store. So I understand. As long as we’re on the same playing field, it’s fair.

But we can’t have people going around and giving away the pricing to everybody. If you don’t want to invest the $200 a year in subscription, then you really don’t deserve to get it. And you’re just harming the entire industry by giving it away.

I hope I answered your question. I’m sorry.

Does anybody else have any questions I can answer?

[participant]: What are you seeing as being the subscription price on the [inaudible 17:32].

John Feigenbaum: So, the online subscription is going to be free for anybody who’s a previous subscriber. So if you’re subscribed to the Bluesheet, you’ll see the Bluesheet. If you’re subscribed to the Greysheet, you’ll see the Greysheet, the Greensheet, et cetera. It’s a free addition.

We’re comfortable at the levels we are charging today. We made a big price jump when we took over, but that’s only because it wasn’t possible to sustain a profit in the legacy [model]. We’re looking for lots of ways to add value to this membership.

And the phone application might become a monthly fee in addition to that. We’ll have to come up with a pricing scheme. What we really want to do is make sure it’s really good first. It’s free for our subscribers until we determine otherwise.

And by the way, the CPG value, that’s the retail value. It’s listed on the website today even, and it’s free. You don’t even have to log in to see it. You can go straight and look up Barber Quarters. If you want to see the whole grid of Barber Quarters in detail, you can see it today and get an idea of what you think your numbers should be.

Thank you.

Is there any other questions from anybody?

[participant]: [inaudible 18:49]

John Feigenbaum: The sample pack? No, it exists.

[participant]: [inaudible 19:02]

John Feigenbaum: It’s part of the Works Pack.

So, Dave was asking about the sample pack. We use a different terminology, but it’s really a 7-pack of one of each of our publications—actually, it’d be eight now with the Goldsheet. The sample pack gives you one of each of all the most recent sheets. And it’s part of our “Works Package,” which if somebody subscribes to the Works, that means they get every sheet as they come out in the mail.

So, if you go to that page on the website, you can order a single—just like ordering a single Greysheet or a single edition, I think you get a binder with it and so on. Thank you.

Any other questions?

[participant]: [inaudible 19:51]

John Feigenbaum: Dave is asking me if there’s a need for pricing of US metals versus coins.

And the answer to that question—first time I get asked. So, to that point, I haven’t been—we respond at CDN to what we get asked about. So we get asked by four or five different people, we’ll say, “There’s a need for that.” If it’s five people, it means probably 500 or something that are asking. And so we consider that real. As soon as the market sees real, we’ll price it if we can find […] the pricing.

That’s exactly how the Goldsheet came out. Many of you may not have seen this. But the first [unintelligible 20:50] from CDN is about 1989. And it’s for the Goldsheet. It prices modern Chinese coins basically on the demand. This is an emerging market. It’s actually tremendously robust in Asia. And it’s worth paying attention to.

Even though many cultures here don’t collect modern coins—or if they do, but if you don’t collect modern coins, you might overlook this very quickly. But the modern Chinese market is incredibly strong. And the number of buyers over there is huge.

And we’re trying to look around this industry to determine how we can grow, survive and really pay attention. This is the market that we think is worth your time which is why we published the sheet.

I can tell you that, for example, advertisers, they’re clamoring to be in this publication. The Asian coin dealers are dying to get [unintelligible 21:45] over here.

We were in Hong Kong two months ago, Patrick and I for our first coin show in Hong Kong. And we noted that in this coin show, there’s a lot more people. The aisles are packed. If you go to our Facebook page, we posted some pictures.

Everybody is doing business, cash everywhere, buying and selling. There’s world bank notes, modern Chinese, really all these countries, Singapore, Thailand. All of them are issuing new issues.

And their customers are very interesting. It’s really like something out of the United States in the ‘70s and ‘80s in terms of interest. And it’s a highly collectible.

So, what happens is those dealers are thinking, “We don’t know. We don’t understand the American market. What is that? You’re alien to us.” And of course, American dealers are thinking the Asian market is alien from our perspective of them.

And so, the Goldsheet, this is our attempt to bring these two together. And if these two markets could communicate, then I think it’s going to be very well received.

[participant]: [inaudible 22:52]

John Feigenbaum: Bob is asking if you can subscribe only to this new online pricing that we’ve mentioned. And the answer to that is, today, no. That’s because we haven’t officially launched it yet.

But with the app that I’m talking about, that will bring about the same kind of subscription level. So, in other words, if you subscribe to the app—which maybe would be something like $10 to get access to the app—then we’ll give you access to that same data on the website. Good question.

[participant]: So, you can get your Greysheets online? That’s what we’re asking [inaudible 23:33]?

John Feigenbaum: Right, right. Subscribe to Greysheet online only versus print? That’s something that we’ll keep on the horizon.

[participant]: Thank you.

John Feigenbaum: Any other questions?

[participant]: [inaudible 23:54]

John Feigenbaum: So, that’s a question we have heard all the time. Dave is asking, “With our aging collector base, could we go to larger print?”

And the answer to that is we’re as large as we can make it. The publication two years ago to today is much larger—and that’s a relative term. We went from 4 points to 5.5 points. No one in their right mind would publish at 5.5. But that’s the only way we can get all these grid layouts and so on.

And the only way to make it quite larger would be to go horizontally on the page which would be many more pages and postage weight. And then the subscription wouldn’t be $250 a year, they’d be $500 a year. Nobody wants that. That’s why we’re putting our investment online. That’s the way we can do it.

The problem is we want to add 8058 columns, AG columns, anything that we can add. The problem is we can’t fit it.

And we price today MS67, Barber Dimes, Quarters and Half Dollars. And very few people would know that because it’s only available digitally.

So, some dealers have this digital package, which is very expensive for dealers to use in their software. But it’s now available for free on the retail side on the site that I told you about. And it will be available with the launch.

So, all of these new prices that we can’t fit in print—and we’re not going to shrink the type to make that happen. But we have done what we could in terms of that.

[participant]: [inaudible 25:29]

John Feigenbaum: [unintelligible 25:37] Brian is asking about Greysheet for soft pack, what pricing for a soft pack [unintelligible 25:42]. Good question.

[participant]: [inaudible 25:51]

John Feigenbaum: The question is “How current is pricing on the Greysheet […]?” That’s a good question. And it’s not answerable across the board.

It’s as current as we can make it. And what I’m telling you is that we’re not a huge company, we’re not a huge staff. The number of [unintelligible 26:17] is small because it’s an art form. I don’t want to disseminate responsibility of pricing to a lot of people because then we won’t have consistency.

So, what happens then is, every week, of course, we price Morgan Dollars, Beast Dollars and all the Eagles that you see on the Greysheet. Those prices are updated very frequently. And we’ll talk a hard look at Morgan’s, maybe on a 2- to 3-week basis and things like that.

The monthly supplement, we try to review with every issue. Sometimes, there’ll be a series or two that we just don’t get to every month, and we’ll follow it up the following month. But we try to get to.

And the quarterly issues, same story which is that we—and most quarterlies come out every three months, whatever that series is. We go through [unintelligible 27:06], and then we price it.

So it’s as current as we can make it. And I would argue that it’s more timely than anything else in the market that I see.

And getting back to this whole CPG conversation that I failed to mentioned, another reason we wanted to launch this retail price guide was that there’s a disconnect in the marketplace between Greysheet wholesale bids and what you see if you’re reading coin roll values, ECGS’ price guide and GC’s price guide and so on. There’s a disconnect.

If we go from $1000 to $900 because the market has dropped, there’s nothing to say that these other pricing guides have done the same. In fact, we have no idea. We don’t even know if anybody is watching or not. And nobody communicates with us at these other price companies. So we don’t have any way of knowing.

And we hear a lot of complaints from people frankly who said, “Your prices are wrong. We think that Coins Magazine is better.” Well, I can’t fathom that personally. But either way, if prices go up, if the dealers were buying coins at these levels, they need to be able to show people a guide that moved up as well as well or down.

We don’t want anyone to get hurt in this market. We feel like the best way to do that was not to [unintelligible 28:23] these other companies to change prices [unintelligible 28:26]. And that’s where we’re doing.

So, we’ll now publish it. So whatever changes on the Greysheet, it automatically changes in the […] CPG.

[participant]: How do you price coins?

John Feigenbaum: How do we price coin in general, in general? So that’s a very good [unintelligible 28:44], how we price coin. And I guess that’s the $64 million question.

The answer is we price the coins the same way I did. It’s the same kind of philosophy when I bought coins as a coin dealer, which is to say that I try to use all the tools that I can use and add to that all the knowledge that we have of the market.

So, for example, we have auction records. We’re talking about expensive coin auction records. We’ve been looking at Heritage’s database and Stacks Bowers and Legend Schematics and so on, and see in the market what coins are selling for, whether we think those coins are representative of the grades.

And that takes a lot of knowledge because just looking at the price doesn’t tell you the whole picture. Sometimes, a coin is amazing. Most of us in this room know that a coin in the first generation PCGS holder will always bring some kind of premium value.

People just go crazy for the old rival holder. But that price should not affect the general price in the Greysheet. We see something go for 50% on the Greysheet, and it’s in a rival holder, we have to ignore that. So we ignore that.

You can’t do machine-learning on things like that. So it has to be done by hand.

So, what we do is we sift through all the prices of any given series. Let’s say Barber Quarters is a series I’m looking at. It’s a series I’m very familiar with. I’m incredibly familiar with Barber Quarters. So if I see 1897 Barber Quarter, an MS63 sell for 10% over bid, […], it looks like a representative coin, it doesn’t look incredible, I look at the last three sales that I’ve seen in the market for that coin, and they’re all sort of [unintelligible 30:33] to match that number. That’s how I’ll look at it.

If I know from the market that Barber Quarters, in general, are very soft, I will see that the market is weak, and I will generally err to the side of bringing down the market. I’d minus the Barber Half Dollars to three straight months recently—I think January, February and March.

I hated myself for doing that. Every time [unintelligible 30:59], they were selling for less money than they were selling for two months really, I had to minus them. I didn’t want to do that, but we don’t want to lie to the market either.

We’ve had a lot of people who say, “You shouldn’t be so quick to lower market. You should stair-step the pricing down. If the coin is listed at $5000 and one sells at auction for $4000 for those coins, make it $4500.” Who’s going to benefit by paying for $4500 for a coin that already traded for $4000? Nobody benefits there, right? And if someone sells at $3500, now we’re [unintelligible 31:34]. Now I’m misrepresenting value.

So, the clinical aspect that we take—that I don’t think anybody else takes in the market—is that we try to mark to market. That’s the way I see it. When the market is moving down or up, we mark to market.

And we can talk about other ways that we gather data. We gather data from dealer buy lists. We talk to dealers who will say, “We’ll pay you $22 for Morgans [unintelligible 32:02],” and you’re at $21.50.

So, we’re listing to the market. I have a lot of dealers call me, tell me what’s going on in the market in their sector, and we rely on them to help us. We just really have our ears to the ground in all these things.

And then, we also have these digital exchanges like CC and CDN Exchange. It’s an online exchange where, for the most part, if somebody says, “Listen, you have Three-Legged Buffalo Nickels and MS63 listed at $2700, it should be $2800,” my answer to them is “Place the bid for $2800. I don’t want to hear it. Put it on the market. Tell the world you’re paying $2800. This is not an exclusive club.”

If somebody wants to pay $100 a month and join CDN Exchange, they can put CD bid, they can sell the coin. That’s how we move the market up. And we don’t want to see any market pulls down where we see things lower.

The market has been trending down. I would say 60% of the market has been trending down this year. And there’s been times of plateau. And so it just depends on—we were talking about that certain sectors of the market are also doing well. So, really, you have to be careful. This is what we’re watching all the time.

[participant]: [unintelligible 33:13]

John Feigenbaum: How could a small-time dealer use […] and benefit from participating on CDN Exchange?

Well, CDN Exchange is the most democratic exchange with a AAA. They charge $100 a month to be a member of this exchange. It’s free for the first month for anybody willing to make this investment and be a part of that.

It might sound like a lot of money, but I think that’s a small fee for someone who wants to make a living in coins. And all you have to do is be reliable and you have a couple of legitimate references in the coin business […], and then you can participate.

We have messages going back and forth from people with collections running in their store and things like that and they’re offering. If you get on there and say, “Hey, listen, I have a customer. I’m looking for what anybody has in high grade. Who’s got something to offer me?” You can post that message and you can participate.

So, $100 a month is about a third of what [unintelligible 34:20]. And I think it’s a fantastic deal. And like I’ve said, they offer for free the trial.

[participant]: [inaudible 34:28]

John Feigenbaum: They’re about 220 current members.

[participant]: The question was about CDN Exchange, 220 members.

John Feigenbaum: Two hundred twenty members.

Any questions?

Well, if there are no other questions, thank you so much, everybody, for coming. I hope I answered any question you had, any concerns.

I brought some things to hand out. You can have samples of recent sheets. There’s Bluesheets, Greysheets, quarterlies, anything. Please take them. And let’s spread the good word about it. We hope that you will.

I look forward to seeing you on the fourth floor.

[participant]: Thank you very much. We have a certificate. Unfortunately, your name is not on it.

John Feigenbaum: We’ll give it to Patrick.

[participant]: And we have a little paperweight. Unfortunately, your name is not on that either.

John Feigenbaum: Alright! Thank you so much.

[participant]: Thank you for having us.

John Feigenbaum: I really do appreciate it.

[participant]: Thank you. It was a good talk. Great talk!